tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post2330698108443625272..comments2023-12-13T12:48:29.436-07:00Comments on Mormon Puzzle Pieces: A New Perspective On The Lamanite "Skin Of Blackness"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-14841064932293760762016-09-11T23:01:23.602-06:002016-09-11T23:01:23.602-06:00Not every reference in the Book of Mormon to color...Not every reference in the Book of Mormon to color was necessarily so. Amorites were referred to as "dark" in color in some texts but Egyptian murals portrayed them with light skins and blue eyes.D. Charles Pylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09135587114531792007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-12218692111473855512016-09-11T22:56:30.338-06:002016-09-11T22:56:30.338-06:00It happened in the Bible, too. For a period of ti...It happened in the Bible, too. For a period of time in ancient times, the vast majority of people in the world could not hold the priesthood, including most of Israel.<br /><br />Even in the New Testament it happened and people did not receive blessings for a time in certain lands. Jesus told the disciples to go into all the world, but when they were carrying that out the Holy Ghost forbade them to go into Asia (Acts 16:6); and, so on and so forth.D. Charles Pylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09135587114531792007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-31979764036860492682015-07-31T02:45:09.528-06:002015-07-31T02:45:09.528-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11883086980919604930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-21706457372234016062015-07-31T02:29:15.804-06:002015-07-31T02:29:15.804-06:00Why is it so hard to distinguish doctrines vs teac...Why is it so hard to distinguish doctrines vs teachings? I don't know. Maybe it's because Joseph Fielding Smith was ordained a prophet, seer, and revelator at the time he wrote that in the book called DOCTRINES of Salvation.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11883086980919604930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-52472238802214977712015-07-31T00:46:23.144-06:002015-07-31T00:46:23.144-06:00The curse wasn't skin color, regardless, The c...The curse wasn't skin color, regardless, The curse that had been pronounced was the separation from the presence of God of Laman and Lemuel and their descendents (because of personal wickedness). If later generations of Nephites conflated the two, that is their own cultural problem, not an issue with the Book of Mormon which is simply recounting their history. Their skin color would have been a characteristic (a "mark" as the Book of Mormon also puts it) that would simply distinguish the two peoples (at least initially, since it is clear that the term "Nephite" and "Lamanite" came to represent different cultural belief systems, not racial ones -- a great deal of intermixing had occurred throughout their history with no distinction at all at one point for centuries after the appearance of Christ).<br /><br />God is also free to use cultural prejudices for his own purposes which, according to the Book of Mormon was to make sure foreign gods/teachings wouldn't be introduced into, or corrupt the teachings of, the prophets as they had received them originally (similar to the Biblical injunction to Israel to marry within its own lineage so as not to be tempted to go after "strange" gods that were worshiped by outside groups).<br /><br />Finally, it is specifically the Lamanites who were of the promised seed (of the House of Israel) to whom the Book of Mormon was written in order to remind them of their origins and the great promises that had been made to them and to which they were rightful heirs. It had nothing to do with considering them "cursed" (except in the sense that one separates themselves from God) -- just the opposite is the directly stated purpose of the Book of Mormon: to bring them into remembrance of the great promises made to them as a remnant of the house of Israel, and the future blessings they were to inherit.JohnMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-65038474336923605262015-07-30T15:51:45.378-06:002015-07-30T15:51:45.378-06:00Mark Hansen- There is no indication that the stone...Mark Hansen- There is no indication that the stone God wrote on was magical, nor did he write anything about skin color. God wrote ten laws given to Moses for Israel. But this has nothing to do with the current discussion, nor is any kind of rock writing relevant to Church history. If you are curious about the mechanics of a Urim and Thummin, you may search Hebrew testimonies if you do not trust Mormon testimonies. I hope this clears up your confusion.<br /><br />Personally, I believe Laman and Lemuel were marked, just like Cain, for similar reasons. It is the racists behind the modern "political correct" movement that want to make this an issue, to decieve usAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775837078563453430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-84740361894529494182015-07-30T15:26:10.674-06:002015-07-30T15:26:10.674-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775837078563453430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-28539126136390770102015-07-30T15:12:15.345-06:002015-07-30T15:12:15.345-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775837078563453430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-47541258642000480352015-07-30T15:07:22.401-06:002015-07-30T15:07:22.401-06:00Rick, thats like saying the Jews never had the Bib...Rick, thats like saying the Jews never had the Bible.<br />And why is it so hard to distinguish doctrines vs teachings?<br />Or the word of God vs understanding of men?<br />The plan is perfect--People will only believe what they want to believe.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775837078563453430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-33881642714596907292015-07-30T15:04:13.542-06:002015-07-30T15:04:13.542-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775837078563453430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-54098448915921812582015-07-30T14:27:47.227-06:002015-07-30T14:27:47.227-06:00Maya during the Book of Mormon times were cultivat...Maya during the Book of Mormon times were cultivating staple crops of maize, beans, squash, and chili pepper. They were not cultivating wine, olives, and wheat as mentioned in the Book of Mormon. It is so obvious that the Book of Mormon Nephites are the ancient Greeks and Romans. The Lamanites are the Medes and the Persians. Duh.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00199167107855754650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-6830106122426846082015-07-30T13:41:35.093-06:002015-07-30T13:41:35.093-06:00The mental gymnastics you people are capable of bo...The mental gymnastics you people are capable of boggles the mind. You rival Scientologists in your ability to excuse away the bad of the religion you were indoctrinated into. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-8183936700178930302015-07-30T13:40:25.418-06:002015-07-30T13:40:25.418-06:00Too bad God wasn't capable of telling his prop...Too bad God wasn't capable of telling his prophets that all his children were created equal. Instead God seemed more than happy to let a large percentage of His children on earth be banned from the blessings of the temple for a large period of time... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-20938047413833372932015-07-30T13:13:25.385-06:002015-07-30T13:13:25.385-06:00"the author of the Book of MOSES... was Mayan..."the author of the Book of MOSES... was Mayan..." ...? Wat?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775837078563453430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-54083346035739271562015-07-30T13:01:54.371-06:002015-07-30T13:01:54.371-06:00Interesting. Though, Nephi was not retarded. A d...Interesting. Though, Nephi was not retarded. A dark skinned child born of dark skinned parent(s) is not a difficult concept. <br /><br /> I have often wondered about the people of Zerahemla, and the Jaredites, and how they affected genetics. Even though Ether was clear that ALL the Jaredites were destroyed... knowing people as I do, its very possible some managed to escape from society beyond Ethers comprehensionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775837078563453430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-38785957613075004912015-07-30T12:32:53.327-06:002015-07-30T12:32:53.327-06:00The word 'skin' is the word at issue here ...The word 'skin' is the word at issue here and the BoM clearly refers to skin and its color being a reflection of the curse on the Lamanites: 2 Ne 5:21: "wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a *skin* of blackness to come upon them." (emphasis added) <br />and<br />Jacob 3:5: "Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their *skins*, are more righteous than you;" (emphasis added)<br /><br />So the "curse" that "God" put on the Lamanites is the "blackness" of their "skin". It doesn't get much more racist than that.<br /><br />Oh wait. Maybe it does. Perhaps this quote from Joseph Fielding Smith: "There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits." -- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65-66Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11883086980919604930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-14020312512728099222015-07-30T11:52:35.825-06:002015-07-30T11:52:35.825-06:00I have always taken 2 Nephi 5 as a great demonstra...I have always taken 2 Nephi 5 as a great demonstration of people already being around when the Lehites arrived. The chapter spans about 30 years which allows it to cover multiple generations. If Laman and Lemuel joined up with some locals and their children intermarried with them, the result would be that the dominant genes for darker skin would be present in the offspring. This chapter is where Nephi refers to his brothers, not as "brethren", as he always had before, but as "the people who were now called Lamanites", which could include any people that had mixed in. Nephi didn't know about genetics so he simply said God had marked them.<br />I don't think we can apply much of Mayan meaning to Nephi, since he had just arrived and might not have altered his Hebrew view or the reformed Egyptian meanings from what he had been using. I think the Mayan/Meso-American ties would have to come in after the first generation had gone. Later in the 3 Nephi when some Lamanites become white like unto the Nephites this meaning could easily be applied. This new perspective also misses that the purpose of the mark as Nephi saw it, no matter how politically incorrect, was so "that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them". As modern pop culture demonstrates, hollow insides have no bearing on the level of enticement to others unless it is taken literally. And with the Hebrew view of not mixing with outsiders, having different skin color would make it easier to see who outsiders were and to not be enticed to mix as a result of that cultural view.<br /><br />Chapter 5 doesn't say that the people put this mark on themselves. It quite explicitly says that God did it. Which is technically true since they would be born with the aforementioned genes, which Nephi knew nothing about, as God intended. We also have a strong case that marks and curses are not the same thing, even though they can be found together. The whole skin of blackness thing is, in my belief, Nephi's way of explaining that his brother's descendants had mixed with the locals and at the same time were dark spiritually as they learned to hate him and his group and were cut off from God.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-36267874200918408152015-07-30T10:16:10.121-06:002015-07-30T10:16:10.121-06:00You'll have to ask Ezra Taft Benson what he me...You'll have to ask Ezra Taft Benson what he meant. I can only infer that he meant what he said. Maybe if you translate what he said into ancient Maya, and then back to English, the meaning will be clear to all of us.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11883086980919604930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-42080037149432305562015-07-30T06:58:29.363-06:002015-07-30T06:58:29.363-06:00I have long maintained the "blackness" w...I have long maintained the "blackness" was metaphorical, though in the context of Old World traditions which link black to evil and white to purity. Part of the definition for "blackness" that Daniel Webster provides in his 1828 dictionary is "atrociousness or enormity in wickedness." http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/blackness<br /><br />I think this is borne out in the fact that the term "Lamanite" came to be applied to people of a particular religious and/or political persuasion. The Maya use of the term adds an intriguing twist to the term.<br /><br />The only problem I have with the article is that it was too short!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12235341245159173780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-24045341266214584732015-07-30T01:52:56.591-06:002015-07-30T01:52:56.591-06:00It isn't just phrases. The phrases in many cas...It isn't just phrases. The phrases in many cases refer to doctrinal and theological concepts that were developed by Europeans and Americans. For instance, the concept of an "infinite atonement" is found discussed in Universalist and Unitarian literature of the period. The idea of "satisfying the demands of justice" is from the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement developed by St. Augustine. The phrases refer theological constructs that were not being discussed in any ancient Jewish literature, especially not Ancient American Jewish literature. But these ideas are found in European/American religious writings. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-55078612613669713332015-07-29T21:56:27.654-06:002015-07-29T21:56:27.654-06:00All of the words in the Book of Mormon, with the e...All of the words in the Book of Mormon, with the exception of some names, had been used as part of the English language prior to the translation. Joseph was not inventing a language, but using a language as a tool to convey meaning. Phrases are like words, and are even made up of words. They are part of the language and can be used to convey meaning in a translation. Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17623980118764230707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-72239510516659497842015-07-29T21:48:35.771-06:002015-07-29T21:48:35.771-06:00Rick, I believe Ezra Taft Benson was saying that M...Rick, I believe Ezra Taft Benson was saying that Mormon redacted and compiled the records for our use - He was not saying the Nephites kept records hidden from themselves for hundreds of years. Am I wrong? Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17623980118764230707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-41715243712865774512015-07-29T21:47:46.907-06:002015-07-29T21:47:46.907-06:00Did you realize that many of the phrases you might...Did you realize that many of the phrases you might think are uniquely Mormon phrases are actually found in non-Mormon writing between the years 1800 and 1828. Check it out. <br /><br />"plain and precious truth" "true and living church" "plan of salvation" "can't look at sin with the least degree of allowance" "forth out of obscurity" "new and everlasting covenant" "shrink with awful fear" "God ceasing to be God" "opposition in all things" "dwell in unholy temples" "infant baptism an abomination" "procrastinate the day of repentance" "after all we can do" "deny yourself of all ungodliness" "satisfy the demands of justice" "infinite atonement" "Christ comes in meridian of time" "degrees of glory in heaven" "probationary state"<br /><br />None of it is original. None of these are in the Bible. Go to Googlebooks. Limit your search to 1800-1828. Type in any of these phrases. You will find photocopies of the sources that contain these phrases. These were all part of the global Christian dialogue before the Book of Mormon was even published. One can wonder how they all made their way into the Book of Mormon. But one can be certain that the Nephites weren't the ones who came up with these concepts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-56558335749988212982015-07-29T21:46:13.165-06:002015-07-29T21:46:13.165-06:00Great. We can put this issue to rest. Now, we just...Great. We can put this issue to rest. Now, we just need to prove that the author of the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price was Mayan so we can make sense of the skin curse in that book, tooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3916334562384780452.post-65081488181726699422015-07-29T21:42:23.369-06:002015-07-29T21:42:23.369-06:00Hi :) If the Lehites landed in Mesoamerica, the Ma...Hi :) If the Lehites landed in Mesoamerica, the Mayans would have been very relevant. Every language, not just Mayan, has a word for black. Presumably it is the color, not the language, which is the underlying factor behind the extensional meanings.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17623980118764230707noreply@blogger.com